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Date: Tuesday, December 11, 2018
Album: Winter Chan Qi (2018-2019) Ref ID: 2nWQ-5TJMzk |
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* I'd like to (Filler words) introduce you to Master Mǎ Zǔ (馬祖禪師) and Master Huì Hǎi (慧海禪師). * [Vietnamese] (...) * As most of you probably know already, [Vietnamese] * Mǎ Zǔ (馬祖) is one of the most influential Chan Patriarchs in Chinese Chan tradition. [Vietnamese] (...) * He's famous because ... * We can't really tell his level. [Vietnamese] * Okay. * But he's famous because of the students that he produced, he trained. * He trained so many Great Chan Masters and their descendents are also very famous in the Chinese Chan culture. [Vietnamese] * And one of his famous students is Huì Hǎi (慧海). [Vietnamese] * Okay ... * So tonight I'd like to present to you, share with you the interchange of the first meeting that occurred between Mǎ Zǔ (馬祖) and Huì Hǎi (慧海). [Vietnamese] * All right ... * According to the Chinese tradition, [Vietnamese] they put a lot of emphasis on ... on visiting their Great teachers. [Vietnamese] * Meaning that ... back then, every single practitioner, cultivator was strongly encouraged to go and seek instructions from the known Masters. [Vietnamese] * This is a tradition, ... a characteristic of the Chinese Chan. * That is fundamental to its strength. [Vietnamese] * Okay ... * And so Huì Hǎi (慧海) is one of the meditation students, ... towards, during the Tang Dynasty. [Vietnamese] * And so he, ... by tradition, ... he came and met with Mǎ Zǔ (馬祖). [Vietnamese] * Okay. * And Mǎ Zǔ (馬祖) ... * So this is the interchange that happened between the two ... the two of them. [Vietnamese] * So Mǎ Zǔ (馬祖) asked him, [Vietnamese] "Cóng hé chù lái?" ("從何處來?") [Vietnamese] "From where have you come?" * Okay ... * So, traditionally ... these students need to travel long distances. [Vietnamese] * Back then transportation was very inefficient; ... ou don't have lot of good roads. * And these students usually have to travel long distances in order to go and seek instructions from a known teacher. * So that's why typically, these teachers, when they first meet with you, they will ask where did you come from? [Vietnamese] * Okay ... * But the hé chù 何處 is a ... hé chù lái 何處來 also has a double meaning as well. [Vietnamese] * All right? ... * Master Huì Hǎi (慧海禪師) which later was nicknamed the Great Pearl (大珠) by Master Mǎ Zǔ (馬祖禪師) himself answered, "from the Yuè Province (越州)." [Vietnamese] * So, I came from the ... the Yuè Province (越州) ... the Great Cloud Monastery (大雲寺). * I came from the Yuè Province (越州), ... the Great Cloud Monastry (大雲寺) in the Yuè Province (越州). * Okay ... * That was the answer. [Vietnamese] * Mǎ Zǔ (馬祖) then asked, "What were you planning to do by coming here?" [Vietnamese] * "Lái cǐ nǐng xū hé shì (來此擬須何事)?" ... * Meaning that the Chinese and you, ... ou Chinese, China people can help us out, huh? (chuckle) * What does the Chinese mean? [Vietnamese] * nǐng xū (擬須) * The meaning of nǐng xū (擬須) shì shén me (是什麼)? * I don't know. * You have no idea? * The Chinese have no idea. * I think (inaudible) * Come again? * Anymore Chinese input? * No? [Chinese] * Yeah, it says dǎ suàn qiú shén me (打算求什麼)? [Chinese] * Hmm. ... * The question is ... * What are you hoping to achieve? * It's a little bit better than planning to do. * Okay? ... [Vietnamese] * Okay ... * So, ... * Huì Hǎi (慧海) answered, "I've come to seek the Buddhadharma." [Vietnamese] . (...) * Okay. * Next slide - number 4. [Vietnamese] * Then, ... * Mǎ Zǔ (馬祖) said, "I don't have anything here. So what Buddhadharma are you ... hoping to find?" [Vietnamese] * Okay? ... * And what does the Chinese mean? * zì jiā bǎo zàng bù gù (自家寶藏不顧) (typing) * The Patriarch said ... * Mǎ Zǔ (馬祖) Patriarch said, ... "I don't have anything here. So ... What kind of Buddhadharma do you think you can get? And you have, you neglected your own treasury. (typing) And have run off to ... run off elsewhere ... what for?" [Vietnamese] * Okay. * Basically he says, "Your own treasure, your own family treasure, you neglected. You ignore it ... and you ran, you run off outside of the house ... looking for ... What is it you're looking?" * Okay. [Vietnamese] * And, so the Great Pearl Huì Hǎi (大珠慧海) said "What is the treasury of ..." * See these ... * The English translation misses the point. (typing) * So, Huì Hǎi (慧海) ... Huì Hǎi (慧海) says, ... "What is my treasury that I neglected?" [Vietnamese] * All right? * And Mǎ Zǔ (馬祖) then answered, [Vietnamese] "That treasury is just who's asking me? (silence) It is completed, not lacking in the slightest. (silence) And you have full use at complete ease. Then why do you keep ... Why do you ... you go outside? Go seeking outside?" (typing) * All right? [Vietnamese] * The Vietnamese don't have it. [Vietnamese] * Okay. * And upon hearing those words ... Dà Zhū Huì Hǎi (大珠慧海) recognized his original mind which is unobstructed by knowing and cognition. * And he was so happy and very grateful to Mǎ Zǔ (馬祖). [Vietnamese] * So right there in this interchange here, Huì Hǎi (慧海) received great help from Mǎ Zǔ (馬祖). [Vietnamese] * So this is the dharma of sudden enlightenment. [Vietnamese] * All right? * Any questions? [Vietnamese] * If you have no ... no questions then you understand this completely. [Vietnamese] (silence) * Any questions? * Hmm? * I can wait forever. * I'm in no hurry. * I have 'till 9:30. [Vietnamese] * I can wait. * Think about it. [Vietnamese] (The little guy making noise) * Hey boy. * Yeah? [Vietnamese] * What do you think? * There's a question here. * OMG. * Only two questions. * I don't know which one to choose. [Vietnamese] (laughing) [Vietnamese] * I'm so excited now. * People actually are listening? [Vietnamese] * What? * It has nothing to do with this thing. [Vietnamese] * It has nothing to do with the ... this talk tonight. [Vietnamese] * This is such an advanced topic. * And there's no question about this. [Vietnamese] (sigh) * Okay. * These are very poor questions, so I'm waiting for a better question. [Vietnamese] (laughing) * Come on. * Just like Master Mǎ Zǔ (馬祖禪師), I expect you to ask better questions than this. [Vietnamese] * Mǎ Zǔ (馬祖), Mǎ Zǔ (馬祖) disciple ask such good questions and my disciple ask such lousy questions. * Yes, ma'am? * (inaudible) we don't understand this to a point that there's any questions ... * popping up in our head. * So the questions is * What is this about? (laughter) * I spend 15 minutes explaining it to you and you say you don't get it? [Vietnamese] * You don't understand anything? [Vietnamese] * Lan says ... (laughter) [Vietnamese] * This is OMG. * How are you going to become Huì Hǎi (慧海)? [Vietnamese] * Ai yai yai! * I'm moving to China. [Vietnamese] (laughter) * Taeheo Sunim (태허스님), do you have any questions? * You usually ask good questions. (silence) * I'm putting pressure on her. * Hm. Hmm? * Taeheo Sunim (태허스님) is doing dharma talk tomorrow? * What? * She's talking tomorrow? * Yeah. * We are warming her up tonight. * Mm-hmm * Do you have any questions? * You understand this. (sigh) * Must I do everything? * This is such a beautiful thing and you guys don't get it at all. [Vietnamese] (Filler words) * Okay, now let me answer these lower level questions. * Okay. * So you want me to answer the lower level questions? [Vietnamese] * Something you understand? [Vietnamese] * Okay ... * Such a deflating experience. [Vietnamese] * I was so excited that I found this. * And then you really ... you should feel so bad about yourself. [Vietnamese] * Okay, let me explain to you. [Vietnamese] * Okay. * So ... * Why does he ask where are you from? [Vietnamese] * Because ... it tells you the kind of difficulties this student had to encounter in order to get here. [Vietnamese] * Which is what? [Vietnamese] * Which is an indicator of the sincerity of this person. [Vietnamese] * Okay. * People might ... Master, Master, Master ... I'm your devoted disciple. * Where did you come from? * Oh, I'm your neighbor * And you never saw him before. [Vietnamese] * Yeah one of them is our neighbor, right? * Yeah I know. * I'm your devoted. * I am ... * I heard so much about you ... * Where you from? * I'm your neighbor. [Vietnamese] * Okay. * So, so ... where you come from is ... it denotes that is the difficulties you have to undergo. [Vietnamese] * So this ... Great Pearl says, "I came from this temple from afar." [Vietnamese] * So he says, "I came from a temple from far away." * Meaning I have a place to stay. * Okay. * I have a place where I cultivate. * I came here for instruction. [Vietnamese] * Is that clear? * I've been cultivating at this temple over there, pretty far, but I came here for your for your instructions. * How to better cultivate? [Vietnamese] * So far so good? * All right. * So, so he says, "You come from, you come here ... What do you have in mind?" [Vietnamese] * He says basically ... Xū (須) here is actually necessity. * Okay. * Nǐng (擬) is scheming or ... * Okay. [Vietnamese] * English ... * He says when you come here, you come from your temple. Okay. What is that ... What need do you think that you want to be met? You want to be satisfied? [Vietnamese] * Does it make sense? [Vietnamese] * This is key to cultivation. [Vietnamese] * Okay. * You came here because what need you want me to help satisfy? * That's what it means. [Vietnamese] * Is it clear? * If you come to see a good knowing advisor, a good teacher, and you say ... * I'm here because I heard so much about you. and I ... you know ... * I love your temple. * Your temple is so nice. * You know, I've never seen a temple like this before. * BTW, it looks like a church. * Is this a church or something like that? [Vietnamese] * Then what is your need? * You have no need. * So Mǎ Zǔ (馬祖) says, okay ... * Yeah, it's a church. * Here's my student. * He can tell you. * Give you the history. * Okay ... * Good bye. * Okay. [Vietnamese] * Listen, you should talk to my disicple. * He'll tell you ... * You know, all about ... * You know, the history about this temple. * Okay, I see you later. * You hear? * You got that? * These teachers, * Great teachers, don't have time to waste. [Vietnamese] * That's why he comes to the point right away. * What need do you want me to help satisfy? [Vietnamese] * Okay? * In constrast, [Vietnamese] last night I met with someone who has a huge problem. [Vietnamese] * Okay. * And I had to break my Chan Qi and go meet this person. [Vietnamese] * You know what? * He's 20 mintues late. [Vietnamese] * He came and the first half hour is all b.s. [Vietnamese] * I was very unhappy about it. * Okay. * You come to these people because you have a need. * Okay ... * So that's why as soon as Mǎ Zǔ (馬祖) asked. * Huì Hǎi (慧海) says I'm looking for the Buddhdharma. * I'm looking for the real Buddhadharma. [Vietnamese] * Meaning what? [Vietnamese] * He feels that the Buddhadharma he learned from at his temple is not the real Buddhadharma, yet. [Vietnamese] * Can you see, ... the eagerness and the anticipation and the pain of this monk here come in and say I've been practicing Buddhadharma but I don't think I know what it is. [Vietnamese] * It's heart-wrenching for these people to commit their lives [Vietnamese] and yet they realize it's not the Buddhadharma. [Vietnamese] * Think about it. * So you see this desire of this guy. * Okay. * He says I've been working hard and yet what I've been learning, been practicing, is really ... * I don't think it's the Buddhadharma. [Vietnamese] (silence) * Questions? * Yes, wait for the microphone. * There's a question in the back. * So in Chinese, original text, it says Chan Master Huì Hǎi (慧海) said. * But in English it says Great Pearl (大珠) said. * Yeah. * Why is that? * Great Pearl (大珠) is the nickname for Huì Hǎi (慧海). * But why would they just change the ... * Because I made a comment earlier but you weren't paying attention. * Great Pearl (大珠) is the English translation. * It's a nickname that Mǎ Zǔ (馬祖) gave to Huì Hǎi (慧海) later. * Until he's known later as Great Pearl (大珠), the Great Pearl (大珠), not Huì Hǎi (慧海) anymore. * So actually, it is an honor to be given a nickname by a Great Master. * That's why he's more known as the Great Pearl (大珠) than Huì Hǎi (慧海). * Huì Hǎi (慧海) is a name of his teacher, gave him. * The Great Pearl (大珠) is what Mǎ Zǔ (馬祖) gave him to recognize his skills. [Vietnamese] * All right? * Does it help? * Yeah, the English translation, ... they are a little bit more liberal than they should. * So, ... [Vietnamese] * Any other questions? (silence) * So can you see this? * So, this is ... in two sentences, in two questions and answers, they come to the question right away. [Vietnamese] * They got to the point right away. * Okay. * He says I'm here looking for the Buddhadharma. [Vietnamese] * Let's ask ourselves. * Okay. * Can you identify with it? [Vietnamese] * Hmm? * I know many of you have been practicing meditation and so forth for years. * Okay ... * How often do you have a chance to go ask someone? * Is this ... is this the right thing? * Hmm? * Is this ... * Is this what Chan, Seon, Chan is about? [Vietnamese] * Back then we have someone called Mǎ Zǔ (馬祖) so well known throughout the country. * That you can come and ask questions. * This day and age who do you have? [Vietnamese] * Master Yong Hua. (laughter) * Yeah. * Someday I'd be known as Mǎ Zǔ (馬祖), but it'll be before ... way after I die. * Okay. * Mǎ Zǔ (馬祖) was famous when he was alive. [Vietnamese] * That's the main thing. * Just like my teacher, Master Hsuan Hua (宣化老和尚) is such a great Chan teacher. * And it's not until after he died that a lot of people knew about him. [Vietnamese] * Few people knew about him. * Master Hsuan Hua (宣化老和尚) when he was alive. * Including the Chinese people. [Vietnamese] * Okay. * So anyway ... now we go to slide #4. [Vietnamese] * Okay. * Mǎ Zǔ (馬祖) replied, [Vietnamese] “I don’t have anything here, Okay. So what ‘Buddhadharma’ do you think you’re going to find?" [Vietnamese] * Why? [Vietnamese] * Okay. * Because it's true. [Vietnamese] * The Patriarchs don't lie. [Vietnamese] * He says I have nothing here. * It's true. [Vietnamese] * Why does he say he has nothing here? [Vietnamese] * You Chinese people. * Hey!!! * You Chinese people. * Why does he say there's nothing here? * Okay. * Next Chinese people. * Hmm? * Come on. * You're Chinese. * You understand Chinese, don't you? * Why do you say I have nothing there? [Vietnamese] * When we go to a university. * Yes, sir. * There's a hand being raised back there. [Vietnamese] * He says once you understand the way of the Master Mǎ Zǔ's (馬祖) level, then you realize there's nothing that can be attained; there's nothing at all. [Vietnamese] * Everything is empty. * This is the difference. * When you go to a university, you ask a professor, a well-known professor about something. * That says, oh yeah, I know. * Okay. * I know about this. [Vietnamese] * I went to see a great monk, a very famous monk. * I asked him about a, the gōng àn (公案). * He said, "yeah, I know about gōng àn (公案)." * Big mistake. * Hmm? * See? [Vietnamese] * See? * Remember? * You, you were there. * I asked him what is this ... gōng àn (公案) thing. * He said, "Oh, it's very wonderful. Let me, let me tell you about it." * Okay. [Vietnamese] * He was speaking for 20 minutes and his students said ... * Hey, Master time to go lecture. [Vietnamese] * ... he has so much to tell me. * Meaning what? * He's not enlightened, yet. * Don't understand anything, yet. [Vietnamese] * When you understand Chan, you realize that there's nothing at all. * Okay. [Vietnamese] * Nothing to talk about. * Nothing whatsoever. [Vietnamese] * Okay. * So what he's ... * What Master Mǎ Zǔ (馬祖) said is true. [Vietnamese] * He says, the Buddhadharma, that you're looking for. * Okay ... * I don't have it. [Vietnamese] * I don't have it. * So what do you think you're going to find here? [Vietnamese] * It is such a beautiful answer. [Vietnamese] * It takes a Patriarch to do that. [Vietnamese] * What does it mean? [Vietnamese] * This is typical of the practice. [Vietnamese] * Okay. * In order for you ... to make progress. [Vietnamese] * You need to correct your wrong understandings about what you're doing. [Vietnamese] * The reason that Huì Hǎi (慧海) is stuck and he's stuck in his temple for a long time because ... he has the wrong understanding. [Vietnamese] * So that's what happens. * What happens ... * There's a difference between worldly teachings and transcedental teaching. [Vietnamese] * Okay. * The worldly teaching is that ... something to be attained. * Okay. * And you can build upon what you have. [Vietnamese] * Whereas in transcedental dharma, it's about undoing what's not necessary. [Vietnamese] * Can you see the difference? [Vietnamese] * Am I making myself clear? [Vietnamese] * When you learn the worldly thing, you say, "Oh, now I know this program." I have another application. I'm using another application. I added ... my knowledge has increased." [Vietnamese] * So far so good? * Is that correct? * Yes or no? * Yes. * Huh? * Worldly dharma, your knowledge increases. * Yes? [Vietnamese] * Transcedental dharma ... [Vietnamese] * Okay. * You, in transcendental dharma, the teacher has to tell you which knowledge is the wrong knowledge and you need to let go. [Vietnamese] * One is addition. * One is subtraction. [Vietnamese] * I know many of you come here for the Chan Qi say, "Oh, I want to learn something new." Yes, Chinese people? [Vietnamese] * Okay. * If you're learning something else, it's called worldly knowledge. [Vietnamese] * So far so good? * It's not late to pack up and leave, you know ... you still can go home and spend a very happy Christmas with your family. * Don't waste time. [Vietnamese] * You'll be a lot of happier. * You're wife will be a lot happier. * You're husband will be a lot happier. * I'll be a lot happier. (silence) * Hmm? * So, what happens here is that ... * Mǎ Zǔ (馬祖) says you're looking for something that doesn't exist. [Vietnamese] * I don't have it. * It's a shock to this person who travel a long distance come and say I have nothing for you. [Vietnamese] * He's brutal. * He says after this guy came all the way from India or something. * And he says I have nothing for you. * Get out of here. * Okay. * You see the difference between a Patriarch and a low life monk. * A low life monk says, " Ah, stay here, stay here. And says, we have a lot for you. We have Kim-Chi. We have, we have, you know, bread. We have rice, We have, you know, Chinese noodles and so forth." * Mǎ Zǔ (馬祖) says I have nothing for you. Get out of here. * You see the difference ... between a Patriarch and a low life monk? [Vietnamese] * You see that? * I proved to you right there. * Right here. * I can't see your faces. [Vietnamese] * Huh? * Any questions or comments?